JB4tech.com - International Turbo Tuning Discussion

JB4tech.com - International Turbo Tuning Discussion (https://www.jb4tech.com/forums/index.php)
-   B58, B48 (https://www.jb4tech.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36)
-   -   X98 vs 100% Meth WMI (https://www.jb4tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49926)

Wickedowesix 10-15-2017 01:08 PM

X98 vs 100% Meth WMI
 
So I have been reading that people are switching out 100% meth for X98 ethanol in the WMI tank. Anyone have any dyno comparison of the two? Or any other i information. Thanks!

AWSAWS 10-15-2017 03:52 PM

I can give you some scientific data.
Methanol takes way more energy to vaporize than ethanol
You can burn about twice as much meth for the same amount of air as ethanol so methanol makes more power.

Water takes way, way more energy to vaporize than methanol. So...

Roki187 10-15-2017 04:58 PM

I was was able to crank out a 11.44@118.84 with pure1 E18/100% meth vp m1 *dual cm7s* with major closures.
I have since added x98 to the meth tank and it pulls much better already with no closures at the exact same setting.
Hard to get 1/4 mile data on the street as it spins all 4 in first and halfway through second gears. Hoping to hit the track soon, will report back but the x98/meth mix works very well thus far.

Wickedowesix 10-15-2017 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roki187 (Post )
I was was able to crank out a 11.44@118.84 with pure1 E18/100% meth vp m1 *dual cm7s* with major closures.
I have since added x98 to the meth tank and it pulls much better already with no closures at the exact same setting.
Hard to get 1/4 mile data on the street as it spins all 4 in first and halfway through second gears. Hoping to hit the track soon, will report back but the x98/meth mix works very well thus far.

Do you have 100% X98 in the meth tank?

Roki187 10-15-2017 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wickedowesix (Post )
Do you have 100% X98 in the meth tank?

Just a mix of ~80/20 for now. I’m adding x98 as I go.
80-meth
20-x98

Juan_BIGBOOST_TURBO 10-15-2017 05:58 PM

With our stage 3 turbo the car makes 20 more hp on x98 than full methanol with a much nicer torque and power curve. No throttle closures at all.

protecon 10-15-2017 06:36 PM

At what point do you have to start considering adding foam to your tank?

Wickedowesix 10-15-2017 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan_BIGBOOST_TURBO (Post )
With our stage 3 turbo the car makes 20 more hp on x98 than full methanol with a much nicer torque and power curve. No throttle closures at all.

Was everythung else equal? Boost, timing afr and trims

Juan_BIGBOOST_TURBO 10-15-2017 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wickedowesix (Post )
Was everythung else equal? Boost, timing afr and trims

AfR was a little bit richer and trims were much lower. Same boost, same car, same day, same dyno. All settings were the same as well.

Mrpink 10-16-2017 02:45 AM

So are we saying we should be spraying ethanol rather than methanol?

Wickedowesix 10-16-2017 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan_BIGBOOST_TURBO (Post )
AfR was a little bit richer and trims were much lower. Same boost, same car, same day, same dyno. All settings were the same as well.

What was the afr and trims reading before and after?

Juan_BIGBOOST_TURBO 10-16-2017 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wickedowesix (Post )
What was the afr and trims reading before and after?

14.3 meth and 13.7 X98, trims: meth=maxed out, X98=36~32

I M inluv340 10-16-2017 04:36 PM

Agree with everyone on X98 my logs look way better. Much more consistent almost no throttle closures and timing looks better. I wouldn’t ever switch back, car feels much better

harry$ 10-16-2017 05:28 PM

What are peoples thoughts and experience with GEM fuels? the recipe is 37% Regular gas 21% Ethanol 42% Methanol.

https://gutts.nl/gem-fuel-best-practices/

http://www.azmeco.com/?mid=132

Wickedowesix 10-16-2017 08:49 PM

I'm running 100% meth on e30 fuel without any throttle closures.

RMM 10-20-2017 09:59 PM

Interesting I just tried 95% by vol rubbing alcohol form the pharmacy and the car is noticeably faster, but logs looks the same, if anything I am getting more throttle closure, then before but it is faster, so I do not think it is related to throttle, timing is similar as well, so something else is going on the engine just like it.

0-100km times dropped form 4.8-5.1 to 4.6-4.9, 3rd gear 40-120km pull dropped form about 6 seconds to about 5.6 seconds. Its like 10% more power with nothing visible in the logs weird.

Roki187 10-21-2017 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RMM (Post )
Interesting I just tried 95% by vol rubbing alcohol form the pharmacy and the car is noticeably faster, but logs looks the same, if anything I am getting more throttle closure, then before but it is faster, so I do not think it is related to throttle, timing is similar as well, so something else is going on the engine just like it.

0-100km times dropped form 4.8-5.1 to 4.6-4.9, 3rd gear 40-120km pull dropped form about 6 seconds to about 5.6 seconds. Its like 10% more power with nothing visible in the logs weird.

Relative DA will have a huge effect on a boosted car especially.
And it changes min to min

BazBar 10-24-2017 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I M inluv340 (Post )
Agree with everyone on X98 my logs look way better. Much more consistent almost no throttle closures and timing looks better. I wouldn’t ever switch back, car feels much better

Can you post up a log, what % ethanol ?

RMM 12-06-2017 10:50 PM

Does anyone know how to disable the target boost limit when using map 7?

In my car the TARGET is limited to DME_BT + 13.5 psi, which makes for unpredictable TARGET behavior, when using anything above a 40 adder as it is colder now my car can have a 5 PSI DME_BT, when this happens it results in a boost limit of only 18.5 PSI.

I really want to run 21-22 psi with consistent target setting, but cannot find any way to do it so far, especially as really need to be 1-2 psi below target to avoid throttle closures.

I know I can just run map 6 but I really like the protection in map 7 and I do not want to be limited to 18.5 psi on WMI.

Thanks,

Bullitt1841 04-10-2018 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dRDiesel (Post )
I'm in the market for a 340i M sport. It's a pretty interesting platform and i do see a lot of people suffering with fueling issues and I'm hoping water-meth works better, but it also seems like people are trying out different jets to get it down properly? I'm coming from a 400whp 2016 Volkswagen GTI so i would need the 340i to be at least 450WHP. Don't you guys think dual CM7 is a little too much? I was running a single CM5 nozzle on the GTI and that was more then enough for a 450+ whp setup... not sure if these two platforms are comparable as far which jet to use.

Dual CM5's with E98 runs pretty well. Don't run any water on the B58, it doesn't like it. 100% meth works fine, too.

It's a little hard to dial in meth at tip in, as your AFR will be very rich for the first second or two. But hopefully things will improve with time (and hopefully flash tuning).

dRDiesel 04-10-2018 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullitt1841 (Post )
Dual CM5's with E98 runs pretty well. Don't run any water on the B58, it doesn't like it. 100% meth works fine, too.

It's a little hard to dial in meth at tip in, as your AFR will be very rich for the first second or two. But hopefully things will improve with time (and hopefully flash tuning).

:burnrubber:

dRDiesel 12-12-2018 02:00 AM

I hate to revive this old thread, but anyone still running X98?

LostMarine 01-11-2019 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dRDiesel (Post )
I hate to revive this old thread, but anyone still running X98?

curious as well. i have several unused 55g drums as my race car broke before the summer

dRDiesel 01-11-2019 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostMarine (Post )
curious as well. i have several unused 55g drums as my race car broke before the summer

We might need to start a thread on BimmerPost since this section of N54Tech is ghost town.

Solid67 06-29-2020 06:33 PM

I'm bumping this thread. I am about to get a WMI kit for my M240i and am wondering if x98 is the way to go.

kfardan 06-29-2020 09:55 PM

My personal experience on the N55 engine is 100% Meth made more power than 100% E98.
The car did however feel just a little bit smoother with E98.
I tried even mixture of both maybe 70-60% Meth and the rest E98 .. made almost same power as 100% Meth.
So now I just stick with 100% Meth.

Might be different on B58 though, but give both a try and see which one works for you.

RMM 06-30-2020 07:59 PM

FYI I have BM3 with my own tune at about 25 psi, and e20 + 98, JB4 for meth, but no boost control, so I just run in map 0, with meth trigger set to 4.

Still running x98 on my car, I did try mixing in a bit more water again, like 25, 15, and it seems like at 25% I start to lose power, however the timing is perfect, so the water seems to be slowing the combustion down, or improving timing correction, but lose a little power.

I did increase the knock tables a little, and now have pretty consistent timing on both, however, there is a definite correlation to the % water, and timing corrections, so that would tell me that running more water is likely more safe for detonation.

One interesting comment, I have been adding more timing to my tune and , with more timing the power loss with added water is less noticeable. That supports my theory that the water is slowing the combustion and moving the MBT timing up. When I only had about 10-12 deg timing, adding 25% water was a noticeable and repeatable power loss like around 8%. However now with 14-16 deg timing, it is barley noticeable, or in the range of only 2-3%.

It may be that to get the benefit of the added water you need to add a few degrees of timing, but without a proper day of dyno testing I think that would be hard to know conclusively, as you would need to do many runs to compare different water % and different timing tables.

KnifeEdge87 08-30-2020 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AWSAWS (Post )
I can give you some scientific data.
Methanol takes way more energy to vaporize than ethanol
You can burn about twice as much meth for the same amount of air as ethanol so methanol makes more power.

Water takes way, way more energy to vaporize than methanol. So...

Hate to dig up an old post but the above is scientifically inaccurate

For the same amount of air the energy released by ethanol and methanol for combustion is almost identical. Enthalpy of combustion is 1367 kJ/mol for ethanol, 726 kJ/mol for methanol so once you consider that for the same amount of air (always the limiting factor) you burn twice as much meth but meth produces half the energy, the result is more or less the same.

The WMI being injected also doesn’t actually vaporize in the intake charge (at least not by much), it atomizes (tiny liquid droplets as opposed to undergoing state change to become a gas). So given the amount of this fluid undergoing state change is minimal, the specific heat capacity is the metric we want to use, not the heat of vaporization. Specific heat capacity of ethanol and methanol are almost identical so there’s very little if any benefit for one versus the other.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:48 PM.


Copyright © 2007 - 2022, JB4tech.com